So that happened.

[schneefink]

I'm so angry about the result of the UK's EU referendum. Also a bit scared, but mostly angry at how easy it apparently is to make a majority of voters vote based on nationalist propaganda and nebulous promises and racist anti-immigrant agitation. Austria's presidential election: probably more luck than anything else (and we still haven't found out if it'll have to be repeated because of fricking formalities.) I'm angry that British young people, most of who voted to remain, now have to live in a country whose fate was decided by the fear of old people, who won't experience many of the negative consequences for e.g. the job market and - this sounds shallow, but many of them will die soon. Of course old people have as much of a right to vote as anyone, but it just seems so incredibly selfish. Of course not all old people are like that, blah blah, but I'm still angry. And I'm just waiting for a more detailed voter breakdown to have more groups to be angry at. (White people probably. I'm curious about the gender breakdown.)
Eh, better angry than worried for now.

Hey, silver lining, I could probably take a very cheap vacation in the UK this summer...

Comments

[ratcreature]

I don't think there is anything to figure out wrt travel right now unless someone plans to settle in the UK and has to consider the uncertain future prospects. As I understand it, until they actually finished leaving (or the two years in the article 50 run out without a vote to extend the negotiation period) they remain full a EU member and the old rules apply. So even if they wanted to re-introduce travel visas they couldn't right now for other EU citizens. And after Cameron resigned without invoking the article right away, the two year clock isn't even ticking yet. I guess they could make more of a show with their ID checks with border controls since they aren't in Schengen anyway, as a kind of border theater for the anti-immigrant crowd, but afaik for now freedom of movement still stands in the UK as well, so no visa for UK visits from EU members.

Obviously anyone who thought to move there for a job might rethink that decision even if they still could for now, because they'd be on borrowed time. (Incidentally I read their premier football league was really anti-leave because with EU rules they could just employ any EU players without foreign worker restrictions -- apparently about 100 football players in the premier league wouldn't have met the stricter criteria for non-EU foreign nationals... depressing to think what it will mean for regular workers when not even all superstars would qualify for work permits).

[schneefink]

Yeah, it doesn't affect any summer vacation, I'm just annoyed it will in two years or so. I barely remember needing visas to travel in Europe!
Ah well, vacations are a tiny problem compared to job permits and such. In all likelihood it won't affect me directly, but it will thousands of people and several of my friends. This whole thing sucks.

[ratcreature]

Yeah it does. I really worry that this might be the start of the EU falling apart and then things will be as bad and unstable again as they were before. Things that may look stable on this continent never really are, and structures break apart so easily.

I still remember from when I was a kid looking on from the outside how fast Yugoslavia went from that place for nice, cheap Mediterranean vacations (not that my family had ever gone, but that's what I had heard of the country) to a genocidal bloodbath, and how several of my classmates all seemingly suddenly had different "ethnic" identities and their families actually sent money abroad to support different militias.

[schneefink]

I hope that the negative consequences for the UK, especially the economic ones, will discourage other countries from doing the same, but of course right now all right-wing nationalist leaders in European countries are calling for referendums.

[ratcreature]

Yeah, but since it is in everybody's interest to minimize the economic impact, because a bad British economy is bad for everybody else as well, that can't really be the way. It can't work by deterrent or punishment. Ideally it might give the EU the kick and a scare to work better to actually start to visibly help solve problems and communicate that, and in parallel might at least moderate politicians stop the convenient EU bashing whenever something doesn't work. So that people see that it is better to cooperate.

[schneefink]

I'm not wishing negative economic consequences on the UK to serve as punishment or deterrent, but I think they're unavoidable. I hope it'll lead to necessary EU reforms, but not sure how optimistic I actually am...

[amnisias]

So far all parties have given garantee that EU nationals who have entered under EU rules can remain in the UK. I've not worried about this at all - the question is more - do I WANT to stay?

I also doubt that they'll introduce Visas, I think, given that none of the other non-EU countries have that, e.g. Switzerland, Norway and Lichtenstein, but we'll see. But I'm sure a lot of things will get more complicated and difficult.

[ratcreature]

Yeah, it'll probably not be visas for tourist (though I could imagine them wanting to treat say Bulgarians or such differently from French tourists rather than all of the EU equally), but I think the real problem is that the Brexit people need to deliver something visible or the supporters will be even more irate, only on their fundamental promises they can't because their promises themselves were internally contradictory. Like there is no market access without paying some money into it (which makes sense, because it costs money to do the administration of a trading block) and complying with (at least many of) the regulations. So they won't have all that money to spend on the NHS or schools or whatever promises they are already backpaddling on before even having started the leaving process.

So they need to come up with some sort of symbolism politics that targets EU migrants, because it is not like they can deliver some miraculous job growth to the structurally disadvantaged areas, to make the lives of Brexit voters better. They might not even make up for EU structural funds these areas loose. So they have to make the lives of the others that are scapegoated visibly worse somehow to deliver something.

[cesy]

You're welcome to come and stay with me if you do come to London.

This sucks.

[schneefink]

Thank you! It seems silly to think about vacations right now, but I need distractions.
It sucks so much.

[dolorosa_12]

I hope for Austria's sake that if you do have to go through presidential elections you don't have the same horrifying outcome as here.

I'm devastated. My (German) partner and I were just beginning to build a life here, and now we're potentially going to be uprooted.

In a sick joke, the British passport I applied for - that I'd been dreaming of receiving - arrived through the door at exactly the same moment as that scum, Nigel Farage, was crowing about 'independence day' on TV.

'European Union', says the passport on its front cover. Not for much longer. :(

[schneefink]

What cruel timing.
Fingers crossed that you and your partner won't lose your home and jobs. The uncertainty must be terrible.
Sending you virtual hugs and cake.

I don't think the Austrian presidential election will have to be repeated (and even if, it's by far not as consequential as the EU referendum.) But then I also thought the UK wouldn't actually vote Leave, so what do I know. Fortunately in my case it didn't make any difference. Apparently some people voted Leave because they thought it would never happen, and that's just so infuriating I don't have words.

[amnisias]

All parties have given reassurance that if the UK leave the EU all people who legally entered the UK will be allowed to stay, the new rules will only be applied going forward. Obviously this is not written in stone, but personally I do not worry about getting kicked out. Particullarly if you are 'skilled' and employed.

[dolorosa_12]

Yes, my partner has permanent residence, so it's not likely that he'll be kicked out. However, we both work as support staff at a university, in a university town where that is the main employer for everyone. As you can imagine, the potential loss of EU funding is likely to have a significant effect on employment prospects here in the future.

Secondly, my partner was on track to apply for British citizenship early next year. (He was not able to do so before as my visa was dependent on him holding only non-British EU citizenship for various complicated bureaucratic reasons.) Germany only allows dual citizenship with other EU countries. This means that if Britain leaves the EU, he may no longer be able to hold both citizenships. This means he will have to make a choice between giving up the citizenship he was born with, or living here in the long term but with no prospect of ever voting in a general election.

So even if you're right and he is able to stay, we're looking at a much less secure and certain future here than we were on Thursday morning.

[(Anonymous)]

It's a lot of uncertainty, for sure - the biggest stumbling block probaly will be university funding, if he'd dependant on a uni job.

I'm German, too, and have been in the UK for 20 years. I've never applied for UK passport because I want to keep my German citizenship, and (at leat up until now). There's no disadvantage to this other than not being able to vote in national elections, but with the 'fist past the post' system it doesnt' really matter much, I'm living in the a district that reliably votes as I would. Until the referendum, it is, :)

But if your partner keeps things on trach there's a good chance he will still get his passport before the UK actually leaves the EU and the laws change.

PS - Sorry, schneefink, just realizing that we've highjacked your thread. *blush*

[dhampyresa]

Congrats on the passport. *hugs* for all the rest.

[dolorosa_12]

Thank you.

[dhampyresa]

I'm angry too. FFS EUROPE GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER

[schneefink]

I could envision that one day a country might want to leave the EU for actual reasons maybe, but this was so DUMB, the reasons were dumb and the campaign was full of lies and just, argh.

[naye]

Hahaha yeah my parents are of the baby boomer generation, and they DON'T GET why I'm upset? Which is unbelievably frustrating. And then this whole mess...

Ugh.

UGH.

*hugs*

[schneefink]

Ugh, sorry to hear about your parents. Yeah, the situation is very different now than a few decades ago, including in some less obvious ways.